Atco 14" 1956

I think that you are describing a "high cut" conversion to allow the cutting of longer grass without flattening it befor it reached the blades.

Several manufacturers made provision for this either by the removal of most of the roller sections leaving a short one at each end held apart, either by a spacer tube or with drillings in the spindle for washers and split pins. However Atco seemed to favour a more elaborate set up using small rollers on brackets outside the chassis rails leaving the cutting blades totally unobstructed.

See this link

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kwmovl8bnob8yfv/Atco%20high%20cut0001.pdf?dl=0

It could be that a search of Grandmother's shed or garage may reveal the conventional rollers tucked away somewhere.

Cant help with the correct diameter but guess that it will be around 2". I have made roller sections from beech wood rolling pins obtained from the cookware section of a certain auction site and also had some made by a local wood turner.

Also. may be worth a call to John Cruse at  themowercentrehailsham.com    01323 842477

Thank you.

Sadly Granny's garage was cleared out decades ago, and I just kept the mower.

The arrangement is washers held in place by split pins.

I will give John Cruse a ring.

Nick

Could anyone advise me as to the correct size of transfers I need for my mower? I measured the Royal Warrant on the box as 110 X 150 mm, but there does not seem to be one that size available. 

The fuel tank had no transfer at all. Is this normal? What is the size of the transfer that goes on the sprocket cover? I cleaned that off before measuring...

Nick

A guy in South Australia sells various ATCO decals via his eBay shop (seller name silensmessor):

http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/silensmessor/m.html?_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1

I have reached the stage of reassembly. Quick question: the large ratcheted sprocket that drives the roller has gone back on the way that it came off. The odd thing is that the oil hole which feeds the inner workings of the ratchet mechanism is now hidden on the underside of the cog, facing the side plate. Were I to turn this round, we think that  there would be no drive to the roller, so the blades would turn but the roller would just freewheel. In short it is a bigger version of the sprocket at the back of a child's bicycle. Or is the ratchet mechanism more sophisticated than we think? 

The effect of it going onto the shaft in this way that it has is that it is impossible to pull the mower backwards, even with the clutch disengaged. Is this correct?

i would be most grateful for any thoughts.

Nick

Please post an image of the offending mechanism. I'm no old Atco expert but I thought that machines of that era had a fairly simple spring loaded "face dog" mechanism but that doesn't fit your description.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4no7h9wae6p069a/Atco%2014%20rear%20roller0001…

I am with Wristpin here, Photos needed, this does not sound like any Atco I have ever seen.

I must have been on the Luddite pills, but I cannot get the image on here.

Any Clues?

Nick

Not the easiest or most intuitive site to post images to by a long chalk!

I believe that the is a "sticky" somewhere on the site spelling it out but I'm not finding it at the moment.

For the time being can you put the images onto a hosting site and post a link?

Right,

Having worked out how to upload it, I'll have to email it as the image is too large for the system!

Grr.

Would you mind giving me an E mail address so I can show you what I mean?

Nick

Just resize the image. If you use a prog such as Shrinkpix it will do it automatically if it detects that you are emailing or forum posting.

You can use the form email facility to send me an email / private message.

This is not going well. I have found how to contact you,but there appears to be no way I can attach a picture to my message.

And the Shrinkpix experiment was not a riotous success either.

I'm stuck!

Nick

Have sent you an email.

Got it. Hopefully you have the picture. Please send it on as necessary
Nick

Here it is, new one on me !

Just a thought, is it definitely an Atco?

Well the rest of it is. Villiers engine, kick start and covered in Atco transfers until I repainted it.

I'll E mail a couple of "before" shots.

Nick

Well. It's watch this space, it's a bit too early for my hands on knowledge and literature library but someone will know!

Ok!

Just because it has a Villiers engine, is painted green and had Atco decals doesn't mean it is an Atco. I cannot recall ever seeing an Atco like it, it reminds me of something but cannot remember just what. I think we are definitely going to need more photos and from different angles.

Ah. Ok. Well all the decals looked right,royal warrant etc. And it has the Atco brass tag.
As uploading pictures onto the forum is an issue I will take the liberty of sending a selection to Wristpin pre and post refurbishement. Forgive the imposition but if you could post them for me...?
Nick

Nick

What "issue" with uploading images? If you're having problems let me know and (as site admin) I can help. I can also upload images into your postings for you which other users cannot.

Keith

The problem is the images are too large (in Mb) for the system. My kit (or more accurately me) cannot shrink them. If there is an email address I can send them to I would be grateful if you could post them for me.
Nick

Certainly looks as though it is an Atco - just not one I recognise. Can we have a pic of the rear roller "ratchet" disassembled, or is the pic of the chains and sprockets as far as it comes apart?

Nick

I've reset the "maximum" filesize from 2Mb to 5Mb which might help you (and anyone else using the site) although it will resize automatically on upload so as not to overbear the system. If you want to send me anything direct please use website@oldlawnmowerclub.co.uk and it will reach me.

I see that wristpin has posted your images this evening.

Keith

The mower looks like one of the early post-WW2 or early 1950s Atco models to me. I have one somewhere in the back of the shed I believe.

Keith

Thanks for your help. I took the pictures primarily to give me a steer on reassembly. I have checked but I did not focus on the rear sprocket more than I have, unaware that there was anything odd about it. If it helps the brass tag says "1456/7". Some sort of prototype?
Nick

Nothing prototypical about a 1456/7 Atco. I used to mow our couch lawns at home for many years with one as a school kid. Same clutch, same side-facing pepper pot exhaust. Ours had wooden handles, and a dog clutch arrangement on the roller to disable the drive to it for mowing in tight situations, such as around trees and bushes. We still had it in the garage in 1969.

Intrigued by dog clutch. 

Don't think mine has one of those. 

No, yours doesn't have it.

Here's one that does:

I've never seen an Atco of that age that did not have a pull out dog clutch on the rear roller drive.  I wonder if your arrangement is a DIY modification? None of your images show that back corner of the chain case - is there a hole where the clutch disengagement knob would have been?

Wristpin: In my motley collection of 14 inch Atcos, not a one has the dog clutch, much to my chagrin, and I had a hard time finding that photo of one that does.

I guess it was an option here in Oz. In my own experience, I can't imagine using an Atco without one -- unless mowing a lawn without obstacles planted in it, which I never did.

Nearest I could find I'm afraid...

Oh dear!

Not  only a clutching dog but an OPC as well!

Many thanks all of you. No, no hole in the chain case.
Incidentally the info on the site dealing with timing up a Villiers flywheel magneto is completely wrong.
Took most of the day to work it out but if you time the mark on the flywheel to the notch on the main shaft the timing is about 45 degrees out. You need to have the points starting to open as you get to TDC. For which the flywheel mark is irrelevant.
Or is my mower unique in this regard too?
Nick

Timing. Please give a direct link to what you have been looking at .

I always time to a given amount of Before Dead Centre piston position rather than any timing marks. Sometimes you will find that any mark refers to TDC and not BTDC  . From memory and experience on those engines that have a notch in the end of the crank it equates to TDC. And not the BTDC points opening point.

I've  certainly read in some Villiers manuals that the engine builder will, with the points correctly gapped, set the piston to the correct BTDC point   using  a dial indicator  or whatever and then stamp the alignment marks for future use. This is possibly the better way of doing things as it eliminates the issue of finding exact TDC - there' always seems to be that difficult to define spot where the piston is neither ascending or descending . If you need to find exact TDC there are a couple of methods but they are for another day!

http://www.tanygraig.force9.co.uk/John/vil2strokes.htm

To be found in the technical help sections under "Villiers two stroke engine timing". The second half deals with removal and replacement of flywheel etc. All tosh.
N

Think that you may be being a bit harsh in your comments.

For a start the article is headed ..........Motor Cycle Engines. Now I've no experience with Villiers motor cycle engines and don't  really see why they should be different from mower engines which would normally be described as industrial to distinguish them from those intended for motor bike use but perhaps it would be better to follow directions specific to your engine.

Without being able to see what you have in front of you it is difficult to offer any further guidance other than to use basic principles and set the point that the contact breakers open to the specified distance Before Top Dead Centre..

Perhaps. Was pleased to find it on this site and printed it off on the basis that it would be sound. Bit surprised that as to setting up the timing it was inaccurate. No drama. Learned a lot!

Main thing is that you've solved the timing issue. Now there's just the problem of identification!

I don' t think that you've got a prototype but  a survivor! I've long held the view that where as there is a serious following for both collecting and researching the history of machines made up until the second world war,  after the 1950s we entered tha start of the consumer and "throw away age" ; and that we need to retain / preserve ordinary mowers from the 50s, 60s and even 70s before they disappear for good. I've got a nice example of the original Qualcast Concorde E30 that were "cheap and nasty", made in their thousands but were also thrown out in their thousands  - then they were gone!   

There must be a few more out there, we just need to find them, or at least an operator's manual or parts book for one.

I don' t think that you've got a prototype but  a survivor!

Are such Atco models rare in the UK these days? 

Quite a few of them appear on eBay and other sites here in Oz on a fairly regular basis. I've collected 4 x 14" and 2 x 12" models (plus some spare engines, etc) before I had to stop myself looking!

(Oh, and a 14" Standard, too. I just couldn't resist that one.)

Depends how you define rare. It seems to be a word that is in many an eBay seller's vocabulary! When you browse stuff on eBay about which you have some knowledge it suggests that a large proportion of sellers are either ignorant about the stuff that they are selling or are less than honest.

Not sure whether the lack of detailed response to the original question says more about the machine or the forum. Perhaps, going back to my last post, it is too modern or common to be of interest to the "hobby" OLC membership, but old enough to be out with the knowledge base of those either in or recently retired from the trade and who are willing to "put pen to paper".

I'm amazed that no one has posted chapter and verse on that model or come up with a scan of the manual or parts list.

Yes 'rare' and 'unique' are overworked words on eBay, etc, and usually say more about the limited experience of the seller than the item itself (i.e. they've never seen one, so therefore it must be rare/unique.)

Interesting thought about age of the mowers and associated interest levels. My own interest in Atcos of that era is down to pure nostalgia. I was literally pulled around the lawns weekly/fortnightly by one of those Atcos from the age of 7. Back then it seemed that everybody in the street had a manicured lawn and so everybody had an Atco or a Scott-Bonnar  cylinder mower. My father didn't buy a (Pace) rotary mower until years later when we moved house and golf took preference to maintaining a couch lawn and so spongy buffalo was planted.

It is interesting to note the reaction of younger people when they see my Atcos lined up in my workshop awaiting restoration action from me. Most have never experienced one before. And many have never experienced lawn mowing either, as they live in apartments.

As to the number coming onto the market here, I am figuring they are mainly from deceased estates as my father's generation shuffles off this mortal coil.

I like the theory in your last paragraph although I fear that most wont make it to eBay but to the scrap man!

Just had a quick browse on that site and other than a single 1920s Standard there's not much older than 1970s BUT have a look at this 151684285346 - another freewheel that I've not seen before!

With some of the wishful thinking starting prices I've seen asked over the years, unfortunately scrap metal is the inevitable result.

As for current eBay listings here, take a look at:

171794459073

171799714698

121659659563

And also here: http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-atco+mower/k0

I've never come across a freewheel blade Atco model. My only experience is with freewheel roller.

From what I have been able to ascertain over time - the post war Atco lightweight mowers had an evolving design particularly with respect to the drive mechanism. The major changes were the clutch (cone type from 1946-1952 and plate type from about 1952/3 onwards) and the roller drive. The plate type clutch had two versions the 1952/3 to the late 1950's version was a wide bodied unit and from about 1957/8 a narrow bodied clutch was introduced. With respect to the roller setup this changed over time the following photo shows the gear setup for a 1952 model and a 1955/6 model (note the changed roller gear). 

In 1957/8 the dog clutch was added but appears not to be standard equipment (for at least that year), particularly on the two stroke mowers. It appears to become standard equipment on the four stroke mowers in the next year or so. A picture of the setup is below for information.

With respect to 14" two stroke Atco lightweights in Australia, many of these (from around 1956) were not imported mowers but assembled in Australia (Villiers Australia produced the two-stroke engines to Atco's specification). It is probable that the Australian made version did not include the dog clutch. Generally, the dog clutch only tends to appear here on the fully imported four stroke Atco mowers from this time.

Cheers,

Sir Chook

Many thanks for those details Sir Chook. You certainly deserve your Atco knighthood!

The year changes you give accord largely with my memory. Circa 1957/58 my father bought a 14 inch two stroke with narrow plate drive clutch plus dog roller clutch. I don’t know if was an import or assembled in Oz.

The dog clutch was a great thing, especially for a 7 year old who ended up with the job of using it when he showed his old man that he could kick-start the thing. It allowed cutting around obstacles and the ability to freewheel it into its storage position in the garage.

In my motley collection of as yet unrestored Atcos, the only one that I have with a dog clutch is a four stroke. I have been on the lookout for a two stroke with dog clutch for years and none have turned up -- which sort of indicates that it was a rare option.

Thanks also for those photos showing the change in roller gear arrangement. It seems to align with a change of roller from aluminium to steel (all of my 12 inch Atcos have aluminium rollers but my 1455/56 has a steel roller). I note also the chain idler gear instead of tension hook/block.

It's my intention to build a 14 inch with narrow plate clutch and dog clutch and wooden handles, just like the one I ran behind as a kid. I think I have enough parts and spare engines to do that. I intend to transfer the dog clutch from the four stroke.

Correction: Of my five 12 inch Atcos four have aluminium rollers and one has a steel roller. As might be expected, the aluminum models are much easier to lift!

@Sir Chook:

It just occurred to me that, if my memory serves correctly, the air cleaner on the old man's Atco was a red Villiers one like this:

Might that suggest an Oz-assembled Atco?

Hi GTC,

I have had a look through my records and went and had a look at my 1755/6 that is stored away at the back of the shed. As a result I think it is more likely that the fitting of the Villiers S12 carburettor would have been on an imported mower. The reason that I have come to this view is that my 1755/6 is an imported machine and has the S12 carburettor (it retains the wide bodied clutch and no dog clutch) and the Atco Australia brochure from about 1957/8 that I have indicates the use of the Villiers Junior carburettor (the brochures from Atco in the UK that I have for this date indicate that the S12 was fitted as standard - at least by 1958).

One thing of interest that I also noted is that the crankcase of my 1755/6 is slightly different from the Australian variant which is more in keeping with the earlier imports.

Cheers,

Sir Chook

Thanks for those details, Sir Chook. I'm not well-versed on carbs so that's good info for me.

When we moved house circa 1964 to a place that had kikuyu "lawns", my father bought a Pace two-stroke rotary (by then he was well into golf and he preferred to spend time on the practice green to manicuring lawns at home). The Atco was retained and I used it to mow neighbours' lawns for pocket money.

Now, one of those two mowers definitely had the red Villiers air cleaner -- however I think the Pace had a Victa engine in it, so it was most probably the Atco.

Having not been on here for about a year, I'm fascinated by how the debate as to originality progressed in my absence. Since then I have moved house and acquired quite a bit of lawn. I have bought a new Allett for the formal stuff and a Honda for the rough stuff. 

You will no doubt be pleased to learn, though, that Granny's Atco cuts better than either of them. It's purring, and driving beautifully. But there is one issue. I cannot get it to stay at a constant speed. If I set the throttle so I set off at at a lowish pace it will eventually die. If I open it a bit more then I end up chasing it up the lawn. So one ends up constantly working the throttle to achieve some sort of level pace. 

Question: is this normal? Or perhaps the throttle spring in the carburettor has weakened over time. Or is there another explanation?

Expert help sought!

Nick