Ransomes Marquis Clutch Springs

Still listed by Ransomes LSD4904A

The has been quite a debate on another forum as to which way to fit the shoes - pivoted end leading or trailing. Ransomes say leading.

WORD OF WARNING.

Never start the engine with the shoes fitted unless assembled into the clutch drum.Otherwise the shoes will fly out , stretch the springs and may cause PERSONAL INJURY.

I'm more than happy to help if you get stuck.

I'm just about finished on the restoration of my ransomes auto Certes which is for sale. Regarding the bearings. I'd recommend replacing the bearings so that you have fresh running bearings. this can be tricky so be careful when stripping the cassette module down.

Some worthwhile notes to bear in mind. 

Ensure the main flywheel where your shoes fit has the bearing installed. if not, it's an RL5 bearing.

Depending on the model of your marquis, your cylinder bearings should likely by RL5 but I'd check either with ransomes directly who still have access to technical info and some parts relating to the marquis and auto certes.

When reinstalling the engine to the chassis, be very careful when sliding the flywheel end to the drive assembly, ensuring the bearing carefully seats in. if the bearing is a self aligning open bearing, please be extremely careful as these can be run out of balance and cause damage. I'd replace the bearing completely with an enclosed bearing system which will do just as good and be easier to set up. this will take a few attempts.

as wristpin says, ensure your shoes mount correctly. a good tip here is as follows. some 180g sand paper to sand the mounts on the flywheel so it's bare metal. do this by wrapping tightly the sand paper around and spinning it and rubbing up and down to remove any paint, coatings, etc which will interfere with the behaviour of the shoes. wrap some sand paper into a tube form and send it into each clutch shoe mount to clean any glaze or debris. a quick way is to support the drum of sand paper with both hands and lightly spin the single clutch shoe a few times. After this, some normal machine grease inside the bores and on the posts will do fine. this allows the shoes to work more effectively.

a service tip regarding the clutch drive shaft. there's a grease nipple there. inject with grease and run the shaft by hand for a min, then inject just a bit more. this gives the bearing installed some extra protection.

If you intend on removing the cylinder cassette yourself, please be careful as there is a load spring on the sprocket which if engaged will give a light whack to you. disengage the blade drive and take care when removing the bolt and washer. it's a left hand thread and don't lose it as it's a tapered washer and bolt assembly. when this is done, the rest is fairly easy. there are two bolts engine side and 2 bolts inside the drive end for the whole assembly. undo and remove. the cassette will loosen. lift and bring the engine side of the blade to you carefully and the whole unit comes out.

SAFETY WARNING:

when removing the bearings from the cylinder assembly, ensure you're wearing gloves and eye protection, place the cylinder on a level surface and wind out the two tension screws so the cylinder  departs from the bed knife. now, carefully remove the springs, give them a good clean. the bearing cases are held in place by a stud and sleeve method. so carefully, with a gem, tap them free so that the bearing cases each remove from the bed knife and cylinder. the engine side bearing may be a bit stiff coming off, so be careful when removing the bed knife.

If you need any more info aled, drop me a line, I'm more than happy to help where I can.

ed

A couple of points arising from the last post.

The clutch spigot bearing. - I would advise against replacing the self aligning (RL5) bearing with a rigid sealed one (RLS5 2RS) as Ransomes put it there for a very good reason - to counteract any misalignment between the engine and the drive shaft due to production tolerances. Remove this compliance and the machine may suffer clutch drag due to the rigid bearing binding.

Unless you have gone mad with the paint you shouldn't need to do anything to the clutch shoe pivots other than clean off any dried up grease. I always put just a drop of light oil on the pivot post and with the clutch springs removed waggle each shoe around on the pivot post to ensure that it moves freely. Then wipe the post and the hole in the shoe add a drop of light oil before replacing the shoes and springs..

Install the bearing into the clutch back plate first then go to the clutch drum and release the grub screw in its hub and slide it towards the chain case until it hits the circlip on the drive shaft (if you want you can release and slide the circlip further up the shaft together with the drum so as to get a better view . This may damage any nice new paint on the shaft but that is easily touched up! Remove any roughness or burrs from the end of the drive shaft and if you wish file a slight bevel on it..

Now get a piece of thick  polythene or thin card and place on the engine platform to protect  your nice new paint and make the engine easy to slide around to line up the shaft with the bearing. Once the shaft has squarely entered the bearing you can put one hand over the starter housing and with a soft mallet gently tap the sprocket on the end of the drive shaft to complete the process. Slide back the drum and circlip - job done. Oh yes, bolt the engine down!

The advice re the cutting cylinder clutch spring only applies to Auto Certes  - Marquises don't have one!

Cutter unit springs . They are strong but so long as you release the adjusting bolts until they are flush with the nyloc or binx nuts they won't fly around. If you are concerned, hold a piece of rag over them while levering them off their abutments. Getting the bearing carriers off their pivots on the sole plate (bottom blade carrier) can be a bit of a struggle. A very thin cold chisel or  old ground down screwdriver tapped between the carrier and sole plate is useful to gradually widen the gap and work them apart.

Finally!!! other than the clutch spigot bearing which is packed with high melting point grease, Ransomes have always recommended  that  all bearings are lubricated with heavy (SAE50) oil, not grease as it does not dry out and block the nipples. Particularly important for the two through the holes in the rear roller sections  - if they dry out and the roller sections start to seize on the shaft you have a problem but that is another job for another day!!.

Hi wristpin, cheers on a few corrections.

just a note on the flywheel bearing. I've replaced my  damaged RL5 bearing with a fresh RL5 enclosed and there's no bearing errors at all. does the job just fine. I use K24 grease and copper anti seize grease and it works a treat.

I've not taken on the marquis so couldn't remember if there was a cylinder engage lever or not.

sorry for some slightly off the wall advice but it's what I do and works a treat. especially with the old girl who's just about complete today..

ed

Hi,

Just a point re the correct use of copper anti-seize grease. 

I have experienced people who insist on using anti-seize grease as a general lubricant when rebuilding machinery. These greases are very useful but they are not intended as a bearing lubricant, they do whoever do what it says on the tin very effectively.

Ray

as a note. use copper anti seize grease only for threads and set joints such as interconnecting joints like on  ransomes auto certes cassette systems where the bearing bodies fit to the bed knife assemblies, etc.It's amazing stuff to use but stay away from bearings. use a K42 or K2EP general purpose grease or a recommended bearing grease by your manufacturer.

With copper anti seize grease, nuts, bolts and inserts become much easier to handle, insert and remove when required. it makes a huge difference when loading a new bolt into an old fitting or a nut onto a worn thread to help with chasing, etc. couldn't recommend it enough.

ed

Sorry if I misunderstood "I'd replace the bearing completely with an enclosed bearing system which will do just as good and be easier to set up. "  as meaning that you replaced the self aligning non sealed spigot bearing (RL5)  with a rigid sealed one (RLS52RS) .but now not actually sure what you mean?

Would emphasise that  Ransomes only recommend the use of oil (SAE30 or 50) for all lubrication points on the Marquis and Auto-Certes - not grease.

One further point, the cutting cylinder drive sprocket is screwed to shaft  - left hand thread i.e. clockwise to undo.

yep, that bloomin cylinder lol.

I have a nightmare re the cylinder. the locking bolt and washer had to be removed due to damage by the previous owner's engineer. so now I'm stuck without a 5/16 H bolt to lock the sprocket to the cylinder. no engineering suppliers near me carry anything like this as it's old stuff. so a bit screwed here lol "a bit screwed" where do I come up with all these jokes lol it's beyond me.

finally last night applied the ransomes auto certes logo to the chassis and all is feeling very nice in deed.

re the bearing you mentioned, I ordered the bearings from my supplier who also services the auto certes and uses enclosed bearings for stability and he's not had a problem with them. in fact I noticed they were much easier to load to the shafts and run smoother. mind you, I will be bedding in the system shortly. just need to replace some parts with new. mainly the throttle and drive controls with newer units due to corrosion and damage, also re casing the cables with heat shrink sleeves and new rubber handles due to damage on the original rubber  so it's benefiting from some real work.

the last thing is the grass box. so I'll get 2 pieces of 1m2 sheet 1mm thick and create the seams, inner and outer skin and the guide chute to the cylinder. An interesting sheet metal job. Then it's double coat hardening primer and the ransomes green, not forgetting a lift handle at the bottom of the box.

ed

Quote "I have a nightmare re the cylinder. the locking bolt and washer had to be removed due to damage by the previous owner's engineer. so now I'm stuck without a 5/16 H bolt to lock the sprocket to the cylinder. no engineering suppliers near me carry anything like this as it's old stuff."

Think that you will find that Ransomes can still supply the washer LCO285 (A452001013) and the screw LS2521/6 . The screw is about £3.00 and the washer about  £4.50.  A lot easier than punting about looking for specific parts that were not general hardware in the first place !

considering that I'd phoned ransomes today regarding the bolt and washer to be told they don't know what pat numbers they were and referred me to a supplier in oswerstry. this has been a headache today and I'm officially fed up. even a standard 5/16 left thread bolt is exceptionally difficult to find. found an automotive supplier who, when I tried to ring, put the phone down several times. not the way to do good business.

well... off to southport wednesday for more parts and stock. so should be in luck for a replacement bolt and washer.

now that I've the reference numbers, thanks wristpin, will get this sorted out.

ed

So regarding the clutch springs would I just contact Ransomes about them directly?

Just for the record the two part numbers that I posted came straight out of a Ransomes parts book! They have been superseded when Ransomes updated their systems  (I have emailed them to you)  but if my Ransomes distributor's parts site can cope with the supersession so should theirs!

One of the problems with talking to manufacturers about old machines is that you are possibly talking to someone who has never seen the machine in question, has little idea of what you are asking and is busy, busy ,busy dealing with commercial owners of multi thousand pound machines. Having said that one occasionally  gets to speak to a "gem" who not only knows the product inside out but goes to immense trouble to help.